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Is pride a virtue or a vice?
hi everyone
whats your opinion is pride a virtue or a vice?
i always thought that pride was a vice because a prideful person is so full of himself he thinks himself better than others be it in his/her looks or in his
work i.e my work is better than yours simply because i made it...so a prideful person belives he can do things better than others..
so how can pide be considered a virtue?
 
thankx
For my part, I hold humility to be a virtue; among the wise and well-adapted, this will hold true more often than not. This should not be construed as the opposite of pride, but it will look that way very often.

This question is complicated by gender issues, unfortunately. I cannot deny that I have been passed over by women for not displaying a more self-promoting attitude. I have been disagreed with on this point, but not by any woman I've been able to get close to! Outspoken pride can be a virtue in this instance.

You may well question whether such a lady is who you are aiming to find. It will depend in large measure on the cultural melieu you find yourself in.

It also depends on what you want to do with your life. Wisdom is not a calling for everybody. If material gain is truly important to you in your way of viewing the world, I would say that displaying pride is an important skill in our time. In a world where this is expected from everybody, you will be passed by professionally if you let the loud crowd you out. Professional management is just such an area in the world today, and by some trick of the cosmic sense of humour, these are usually the one's who you have to convince.

For the purposes of inner peace and happiness, however, humility is certainly the light to shine. It is devastating to the self-assured when they come up short. To outpace them by steady pressure and true ability will leave you strong, and certain that you are true to your own heart. And when you are rewarded professionally for that, there is no greater strength of position that can be attained. Inwardly, you will have all the pride you can use, because outwardly, you will be respected.

Humility is akin to honesty. Honesty is a thing you can be proud of. Rabid self-promoters must always contend with their consciences. They do not necessarily believe their own bullshit. You will *definitely* see them succeed around you, but take the long view; watch long enough and you will see their inner demons bring them down.

to illustrate my point, read some of this thread, and look for the character which lacks humility:
http://www.thinqon.com/topic/can_you_choose_genius
it isn't pretty. but it shows what is at stake.
Hassan, maybe you could say a little more about where the question comes from? Why were you suddenly faced with the idea it might be a virtue?

In certain traditions, pride is certainly demonized (e.g. listed as one of the Catholics' seven deadly sins). Matt is right that humility is often the more obvious good. But, like anything, it depends on how well -- and how honestly -- you do it. False humility is more irritating than genuine pride.

And I suppose it depends on what you consider pride.
Some kinds of pride are less obviously problematic -- pride in the accomplishments of one's children or students, of one's friends, pride in the bravery or courage or kindness of others (even if it's, say, one's countrymen -- I think this is still a virtue! Provided you agree with the act).

I don't think it's obvious that a proud person considers themselves better than others. Many people do, of course. But there are occasionally people who are simply grateful for their current experience. If someone runs forty miles and feels satisfaction in their accomplishment, would you call this pride? If so, would you find it objectionable?

A related question is whether our judgments of ourselves have necessarily to do with a comparison to other people. I think this is a matter of personal character and temperament -- sometimes yes, but sometimes no.

In response to Solveig Wright
I think I should just flat retract my quip about gender issues, above. What can I say? Hip-hop music has confused the heck out of me, and I've certainly dated (and not dated) women who did not understand me.

Solveig is fleshing out my thoughts very nicely. Pride is perfectly appropriate when it is earned. In that sense, though, there is no need to ask if it is a virtue or not; if you genuinely accomplish things, you will be genuinely proud. This pride is inward pride, however, and it's expression requires no trying.

It is the habit in some traditions to abase such well-deserved pride anyway. I read last night about J. S. Bach in the court of King Frederick the Great of Prussia, extemporizing a fugue in six parts on the spot. He later wrote out what he had done and presented it to the King as a gift, accompanied by the most self-abasing embellishments of language imaginable. You are unlikely to find need of such customs in our day.

I am inclined to offer a different word for the character you should strive to display. That word is *assertive*. This is neither pride nor fear, neither entitlement nor self-abasement, but rather a principled, stand-up honesty in the face of everything. This character trait is the one I wish to cultivate in myself, and as such, I would recommend it to you as well. It is a sort of middle ground in which apology is in reach and rebuke is in reach as well, but neither in undue measure. An assertive person can get what they need, but they can be relied upon not to fall victim to intemperate flights of emotion, be they greed, pride, self-contempt, envy, or anger. It is the mark of a well adjusted person, and is respected by any who recognize it.

I cannot claim to have mastered this. Evidence of my own despair are easy to chart in some of the words I have written in these forums. I think that nearly everyone can be pushed into intemperate feelings by circumstance, but assertiveness is what well adjusted persons display when their lives are properly under their own command.
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